The Powerful Tool of the Enemy
Episode 87 is a solid 57 minutes of pure goodness.
The Powerful Tool of the Enemy
Episode 87 is a solid 57 minutes of pure goodness.
Aired On
May 23, 2022
57 minutes
Try Dwell

Conversation Eight. We talk about the “s” word in this episode. No not sex, but shame. Shame is a powerful tool of the enemy that keeps you from experiencing the full life Jesus promised in John 10:10.


Resource – True Face: Beyond the Mask.
Verse – Genesis 3:10
Verse – Hebrews 12:2
Verses – 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
Verse – Romans 8:1
Resource – Bestself Icebreaker Cards


Take a Listen to Other Episodes in this Series.


Josh – Hello hello hello where does tumoral dudes try to live this jesus life. My name’s Josh.

Andrew – Hey I’m Andrew and we are this jesus life podcast Josh my friend your your voice is sounding especially deep this morning when you came in on that intro was thinking wow radio mode Josh.

Josh – Boom Boom dude.

Josh – Yes, ah. Yeah, that’s that’s my new voice I’m going for it like I want one that deep sexy voice I just felt like our podcast was missing something in the deep sexy Voice. What’s his name who’s the voice actor that like is Known. Ah.

Andrew – What’s up.

Andrew – Ah, right right? I I don’t know man I have no idea. Um.

Josh – Ah, that’s gonna bother he was in he was in not sandlot um field of their dreams. He was like the audio announcer and like the the I think he’s the one that did like the narration throughout the thing gosh I can’t remember his name I can see his face.

Andrew – Um, love dream.

Andrew – I don’t know man I got to tell you secret I’m horrible at actors names like horrible honestly because I just had 0 care for that. Yeah I’m like I can tell you about the movie I can tell you about the Maiden character I can tell you about that.

Josh – I am too. That’s why I’m like let me tell you all the things about them.

Andrew – But I just don’t really care what the actors names were in general I don’t know I don’t know man I Guess ah it’s just not my my calling you know is Hollywood Hollywood stuff. Yeah, dude, how’s your week going? yeah.

Josh – That’s for.

Josh – I Feel like I feel like it’s been. It been a long time like when the when the in interests started playing I was like man when’s the last time we heard the intro.

Andrew – Yeah, we missed a week that was my bad that was my badt actually so we went camping over the weekend which was awesome. But last week we James or you got excited there.

Josh – James R Jones that’s what I was thinking of sorry.

Andrew – You might want to turn your mic down just a little bit people you you don’t know it I only know it because Josh told me but he reorganized his office and moved his mic and did all sorts of things. Um, but yeah your your mic was peeking a little bit but I was gonna say we missed a week because of me is my fault I take full ownership of it. Josh had a busy week too. But on top of just normal work busyness and life we were prepping to go camping and and left like Friday morning so you know. Wednesday Thursday anytime we could grab was like get the camper ready pack the things get the groceries. We need all that stuff so we did have a good trip though we got to hang out with my parents at this cool park in Pennsylvania called Ohio Pile P Y L E Ohio pile and. Was awesome man. It was like epicically blue turquoise water these really a couple really big rivers. We did ah a hike next to like 3 different rivers and a couple waterfalls and all this stuff it was. It was awesome. So I want to go back to that place at some point and. Yeah man if you ever come visit pa we might need to go there and catch some trout you know make it happen.

Josh – Nice you What was like the biggest highlight from the trip.

Andrew – Ah, the biggest. Okay, the biggest highlight we so it was a you know Friday Saturday Sunday trip but like part day Friday part day Sunday so Saturday was like the big day. Um, and I almost say Friday night watching Catherine. My oldest daughter Rose to marshmallow for the none time in her life cause that was awesome. Um, but Saturday yeah Saturday the hike was just like really epic and and really fun.

Josh – That’s cool. So.

Andrew – And watching my 1 year old daughter she was like exhausted like really needed a nap and rode in the carrier for the whole time but dude she was having so much fun that she just stayed awake until the last chunk of the hike where she like had to pass out. But yeah man it was just like. So good to get out and stretch and do a big hike. It was like over six miles that we went and it was awesome. So yeah man, lots of highlights actually but none marshmallow and big hike were the top 2 for me. Yeah.

Josh – Nice, good old marshmallows I’m like 1 of those guys that like I love the idea of a good marshmallow and then you have 1 and you’re like yeah I’m good. It’s not. It’s not quite to the level of like popcorn.

Andrew – Yeah. Ah, yeah, right? What I’m not popcorn you serious Ah dude that is messed up.

Josh – Popcorn’s one of those things that like always disappoints me where it smells amazing. You’re like this is gonna be so good and then you eat the popcorn. Youre like it never lives up to its smell. It’s just at best. Yeah, that’s me.

Andrew – That’s really messed up that you feel that way about popcorn I’m sorry for you because I yeah yeah, but Alie also has this white chatdar popcorn that’s like amazing. It’s like comes at a bag and that’s been that’s been a staple at our house recently? um.

Josh – Do you make your like own homemade popcorn.

Andrew – But yeah, man may sometimes we make our own popcorn on the stove and lots of butter and salt and sugar is like the combo those 2 together on popcorn is really what’s up. Yeah man. Yeah.

Josh – Sugar interesting.

Andrew – But we’re but like Janet and I both could eat like a very large bowl of popcorn because once we have it. We just keep going. You know it’s ah it’s delicious. That’s what’s up.

Josh – You have never always like I always see popcorn in the supermarket and you’re like oh I could make my own and then I’ll buy it and then I never do it just sits in my pantry. But yeah, just not pop for fam. Ah.

Andrew – Man Well I’m sad for you man, It’s sad for you. You know.

Josh – All you popcorn sometimes at a movie theater but not usually you know? yeah I’m just lame like that I guess I’m just not cool enough to have popcorn dreams and caviar wishes.

Andrew – Um, nice. Yeah.

Andrew – Ah, so well. This is a great moment to bring up our newest sponsor for this Jesus Life podcast which is popcorn dreams and caviar wishes. Um, it’s the None ever company to bring you caviar popcorn and ah. That is a popcorn dress tried. It’s terrible but we get a kickback so you know go to popcorn dreams at Caviarw Http:// and probably a little fishy though too I would think.

Josh – It might not be bad I’m pretty sure Caviar is like pretty sure it’s like super salty so they might they might actually go together I’m not sure if you’re out there listening and you’re like you know what? I love me some caviar popcorn I would like to know.

Andrew – Oh.

Josh – Just like how’d you try it for the None time like why’d you think to yourself. Yeah won caviar in my pop where I just feel like 1 is really expensive and one is not and you’re just putting them. It’s just like that. Just just a position. You’re just like yeah I’m like reaching out to my my rich.

Andrew – Ah, right? right? yeah. Um, yeah, that’s right? um.

Josh – Rich person you know parts of my body and then my you know cheap person parts of my body or however, that works I don’t know dude Andrew what are we been talking about recently.

Andrew – Oh that’s funny dude what? yes bro we’ve been having conversations. Ah, we’ve had None conversations and the the series that we’ve been calling. Conversations is actually. Like a couple purposes one we we’re trying to to intentionally model like this is a good way to build real relationships with other people. Ah because Josh and I both believe like if you’re gonna reach people with the lord if you’re gonna get. To to want to have a relationship with god ah you probably need to know them pretty well for them to to want that. Um, aside from that aside from just building a relationship with people these same skills questions tools conversations are great things to have. Ah, in your prayer at prayer life with god like by better connecting with people you’ll you’ll be able to better connect with god so um, yeah man, we’re this week we’re we’re talking about. Maybe the least fun subject. We’ve covered. Ah so far. Um. So yeah man, we get to talk about shame. Let’s talk about shame and why it’s ah why it’s super fun. You know, no, not really why it’s super fun. But yeah, this conversation really is gonna be about about us and about shame and just. Headline if you haven’t listened to our podcasts and you’re jumping in here. Um, these conversations are actually meant to be in like 1 on 1 settings or 1 on 2 like very small groups. They’re supposed to have high level of trust and vulnerability in them as well as confidentiality. Like I’m sharing this with Josh. It’s not going anywhere else but there’s one curveball in that we’re on a podcast right now. So Josh and are trying to model this publicly as best we can. We’re going to be intentional in all these conversations to not. Share things about other people that we don’t have you know approval to share or consent to share so we’ll we’ll do our best to be vulnerable, but we might tone it back at places just because you know this is a public setting and if Josh and I were talking just one on one. We wouldn’t. Tone it back at all. But we’re talking in a pretty public podcast. So thanks for listening and Josh you want to add, add anything to that about what we’re about to talk about with shame or do you think we should dive in.

Josh – No I say we? well maybe before we dive in because the questions don’t actually get here. Um I think it’s important to know if if you’re followergies meaning you recognize um that um.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – Jesus was the son of god lived a perfect life. You were a sinner in need of salvation and Jesus was the gift towards that he was a sacrifice to restore relationship and if if that’s where you’re sitting in the midst of that. What Jesus did on the cross took care of your shame.

Andrew – A.

Josh – Like you shouldn’t feel shame. You should feel guilty when you do something wrong and and make it right with people but shame is a different story guilt guilt says you did something wrong. Shame says. Um, you are wrong like I am wrong like I’m the issue in the situation. Um. Like it attacks your identity um is is a shame and I think the enemy is really good at playing these games with you I think man probably more than most things in your life shame is the stumbling block that keeps you from ever getting to the places that Jesus wants you to go. Um, because you don’t think you’re worthy. You don’t think whatever the shame lie is that’s that’s being thrown at you. Um, and you get in these weird spirals that you just feel like you can never get out of um or you get to these places where you think you could never be the real you with people because if they knew the real you. Um, they wouldn’t like you like you get into the all. Yeah, just it’s ah it’s a crazy cycle that that you want to be aware of so as we talk about these things. We’re not gonna get super deep into necessarily conquering shame and how to do it. Um, that’s a conversation that you should definitely have with Jesus if you feel these things coming on but we are going to talk about the message of shame in our own lives and kind of how it shows up we prayed before the podcast for god to give us something because my brain works this way things I don’t like I don’t think about.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Um, and shame is one of those things I just I don’t like so I typically don’t think about it. Ah, and in this case, we kind of need to think about it so we have something to talk about and share. But yeah I think that’s unless you have anything else to add to the shame conversation. But you know Jesus took care of it on the cross hebrews None says

Andrew – Um, yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Great ribbing.

Josh – Looking to Jesus the found and perfect of our faith who is the joy. Ah, who for the joy was set before him to endure the cross despising the shame and is seated the right hand of the throne of god is always a good one to remember. But yeah, shame shame shame doesn’t play.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Who.

Josh – Any games in our in our Christian faith and I think when it starts to attach to our identity. Um, we we actually pull back from people not not achieving or experiencing the full growth that Jesus has for us.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah man, What? Okay I know we have a few questions we’ll go into but I just wanted to bring it out up quick. There’s like in christianise you know there’s there’s we talk about Conviction. I Feel convicted too. You know that’s like a legal word of like a judge convicts someone of a crime um in the same way we kind of use it in in the church of like I feel convicted by um and and really like the way I view feeling convicted is like man. Did wrong and I know I did wrong and the holy spirit is leading me to feel convicted I feel guilty almost not not to feel guilt but to feel like man I know I did something wrong I know that was sin that I that I did and I I gotta make it right? You know. Like that’s the next natural step when you feel convicted. Yeah yeah, it could be Guilt. You’re right? but ah, but I think there’s a huge difference between feeling convicted and feeling shame ah because like conviction is like I did wrong.

Josh – And it could be gil. Guilt’s fine.

Andrew – And I know I need to make it right I send and I know I need to to make it right? as best I can but but I think the back the thing in the back of your mind is like but I’m already forgiven like I know I’m forgiven but I need to make it right I need to not do that Again. I need to um you know. Lean in with God and and figure out how to get my heart changed or or focus on getting my heart Changed. So I don’t just keep doing that same thing again and again, um, and at the meantime I need to make it right with the people that I hurt when I was sending you know with that. Shame on the other hand is just like this brow beating of like no, you didn’t just do Wrong. You are wrong like you are bad you you should feel bad. You suck. Ah, you’ll never get better. Um, and you shouldn’t even Try. Just wallow in your wrongness. You know that’s that’s more how I think about shame is like a voice of like no, you didn’t do bad you you are bad and you won’t get better. You should feel Ashamed. You should stay where you are. It’s like a. Ah, brow beating and a beat down at all at once and for me when those things are happening. It’s usually in my mind. It’s usually not people saying those things out loud to me because those are harsh things to say to somebody. Um, but I think shame comes a lot more From. Ah, from Satan like trying to beat us down and keep us down and conviction or even maybe some guilt comes from the holy spirit of like hey here’s a flag this is something that that you need to deal with this is something you shouldn’t ignore. Shame is just you are bad. You aren’t worthy of God You aren’t worthy of of these things you shouldn’t try you suck. Basically this how I would describe shame What did that spark anything or you you have any thoughts between the the difference be quick I just feel like it’s important to make sure. I Don’t know it’s important for me to draw a line between like righteous conviction and shame.

Josh – Yeah, no I Essentially said the same thing earlier.

Andrew – yeah yeah I was listening I was listening sort of ah but I was also like having that thought in my mind so I’m sorry I’m sorry Josh and I ah we’re having a great conversation. Ah.

Josh – I Figured hi Love Buddy I was like I was just gonna let him go I think I think I think it should be repeated twice. It’s important.

Andrew – Ah, well that is this episode of this is like podcast. Thanks for listening? Yeah, ah, that’s funny man. Well we’re aligned we’re aligned. Yeah.

Josh – Well and I think too like shame is shame is talked about a lot. Um, but it’s not but it’s not talked about at the same time like we talk about it in generalities I think a lot in the church. Um, especially in women’s ministries you hear women you know speakers talk on the topic pretty regularly. Um, but we don’t talk about like the nitty-gritty of it and how do you deal with it and overcome it. Um, and we don’t push through and I think too this is where those like.

Andrew – He.

Josh – This is where feeling vulnerable feeling exposed inside a relationship starts to come to play is because you you got to talk about it like you’ve got to let it out and essentially that’s that’s what we’re doing with this conversation today is is. We’re talking about the shame messages that that we believe from time to time. Um, or all the time depending on you know what it may be so I think there’s that piece of it too that like you’ve got to find trusted friends. You got to be talking about with Jesus None um you got to find trusted friends that love Jesus and love you in that order and talk about these things with them as well and this is where relationship feels exposing. Ah, more than anything else I think it’s this shame message that we’re believing that makes us feel exposed inside of relationship and that we have to start fighting through because I’m telling you like yes Jesus leads the sanctification process the growth of you to become who he’s called you to be. Um, the change of your character your ability to to love people better. Um to love god ah deeper but to do those things like you’ve got to get over yourself like um if you’re believing shame messages your identities attached to those things which means you’re never going to be able to love people genuinely.

Andrew – You yeah.

Josh – Well like it’s not going to come because you don’t feel safe and this is why these I think these conversations are important is to feel safe. You’ve got to deal with the shame messages and when I say you’ve got to like Jesus is going to do the work of dealing with those things but you got to be the participant in the in the midst of that.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Um, to talk through those things and share those things with Jesus and then start to get comfortable about sharing those things um with those and in your circles of of trust and relationship so they know who you are and and kind of where you’ve been um, but. You know the more you can bring these things out into the light the less power that these things have over you and and your ability to interact and love people well but I think we’ve we’ve nailed. We’ve we’ve hit it into the ground as much as we possibly can. We did it twice. Ah which is fantastic.

Andrew – Um, yeah, yeah, ah we did it twice? Ah yeah, yeah, man.

Josh – Ah, but let’s get to the None question Andrew and I’m going to throw it to you because hopefully you have an answer to it because I’m still I don’t have 1 ah but what is 1 particular one particular shame message that you’ve experienced or believed. It doesn’t to be active. It could be in the past or whatever.

Andrew – Yeah, thanks man, Thanks Ah, well you better? ah.

Andrew – Let me just say in in 5 minutes Josh will repeat back the same answer with slightly different context I’m ah ah ah, that’s funny man. Um I think about.

Josh – That was really my plan I was just gonna use different names.

Andrew – Ah, when I this is going back a ways but when I none was was getting serious about like following and living out my relationship with the Lord. It was like early college like freshman year and I would say by sophomore year and junior ah year especially like so I started co-leading bible study with one of my friends Keith and we spent a lot of time like we we brought in it was a group of like 8 or 10 college friends. You know guys and. It was pretty serious like we’d meet weekly and and had accountability partners as smaller groups as a part of it and and all kinds of stuff and like we tried to be really intentional in seeing each other grow. Um, one thing we we hammered ah on was was shame. Um, and especially shame connected to sexual sin um, like looking at porn all of that stuff that that’s so prevalent man in our society and so normalized in in Tv shows and in all media now. Even more than it was then that ah that I don’t know like I guess a lot of guys. Especially young guys don’t really know like hey this is this is not just a problem for you. This is actually something a lot of people. Deal with and a lot of guys. Especially really everybody but a lot of guys deal with um so like I remember almost yearly in those groups which they kind of changed sophomore junior senior year because people graduated or decided not to be a part of it or new people came in but like. We would always upfront take some time like hitting on it directly like hey porn is a huge problem and it’s not something that’s that’s okay, in in your relationship with the lord like and and working on bringing each other into to real accountability of like. Not just hey did you look at porn because that’s like there’s that level of it but like man like are you are you taking control of your mind and your thoughts are you like avoiding watching you know movies and things that you know are going to send you down paths. You don’t want to go down like. Took a lot of time on that stuff and and we’re very intentional with it and looking back I’m like I don’t know like it was ah it was a really good thing we did I think um, not perfect in our approach but that’s okay, you know where we all learn together. Um.

Andrew – But yeah man, we we always took a lot of time to break that. Ah that that voice of shame which which says like you’re in this alone. This is just your problem. You’re you’re the one who sucks at this and everybody else has it figured out like that’s ah that’s a big piece of shame at. That I think is a huge factor of it is like shame wants to keep you quiet and wants to keep you feeling feeling alone so when when you’re working with other people when you’re building deep trusting relationship with others and discipling others. It’s like it’s really important to to know first of all that. These struggles aren’t aren’t isolated and common to Josh or Andrew or whoever you are but they are. They’re shared things and and the the moment you break that that lie in your mind that you’re the only None dealing with it whether it be. Porn or sexual sin or something very different moment. You break that lie and bring it out into the open the better. You know that’s that’s usually a none major step to breaking a cycle of shame is like I’m not alone I don’t have to be alone in this and realistically I never was I just. Believed I was you know so does that answer the question is that is that helpful a man. Yeah.

Josh – Yeah, think so I think it’s good. Um, and like maybe this is like a guy thing I don’t know I’m not a woman so I don’t know how women think um, but like I think a lot of our shame does live inside of our sin. Um.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – And we don’t want to share the the real struggles of our lives because we’re afraid of like what what are people going to think about us like are they still going to want to be my friends even though they know whatever, whatever the could be a None different things. Whatever the struggle is.

Andrew – Right.

Josh – Um, but man this is such a hard. Um.

Josh – Like it’s easy and it’s figuring out like those lies that you like you constantly believe and maybe they are tied to experiences as well like like Andrew like I struggle with porn you know majority of my teenage through young adult life in. Um, even even in the midst of that struggle like it’s one of those things that like you never you talked about, but you never really talked about um with with the people around you like you, you talked about it enough to know like yeah, everybody’s in the same boat but you didn’t really deal with the junk of it. And then you know at some point something happens usually like you you feel like you’ve crossed a line too far in you know what? you’ve participated in or watched or whatever and it freaks you out and then you want to make the change in difference and you try to do it on your own and you know I’m guilty of teaching this like is how i.

Andrew – From yeah.

Josh – Taught people how to fight it because it’s how I fought it, but it was all. It’s just self-discipline and and white knuckling it and it had nothing to do necessarily with Jesus it was just I knew it was bad so I was going to stop doing it? Um, but now that I live in a different life in a shame-free life meaning talking about the crap.

Andrew – Um, we can.

Josh – Of your life that leads you to those things typically for men. It’s control like that’s typically why we run you know to porn is you know we’re trying to control something we feel like we can’t control so like talking and dealing with those things and those probably feel like more vulnerable conversations than the porn conversation and all honesty with Jesus.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Who.

Josh – Um, at least that’s been my experience man when we get to those places the the porn stuff is easy, not saying there isn’t temptation for it but like it’s different kind of temptation than I’ve ever experienced maybe because I’m just getting older and you know my sex drive is different. Maybe that’s the real reason but like I don’t I don’t I don’t play those games anymore and it doesn’t feel like a chore to to fight it off kind of thing. But I think it comes back to ruling with that stuff with Jesus.

Andrew – Right? No man and pause there for a sec I think it’s I think it’s probably just that god has like intervened and and moved in your heart and mind and life over time you know and you haven’t you haven’t lost the understanding you’ve built. Um, but that god has done working you and it’s like hey that was a struggle for a season. It still could be if you wanted to slide back into it but like god’s actively working in you and making you a new creation. You know so it’s like not to say Josh is now perfect or Andrew’s now perfect because far from it.

Josh – Well I am but it’s different.

Andrew – Never say that but it’s just like hey here’s some different struggles to deal with you know it’s It’s not that one anymore. But guess what there’s gonna be plenty of challenges in your life in plenty places that that God needs to continue changing. So I just wanted to mention that like I just think it’s god.

Josh – Um, yeah.

Andrew – God’s work in you know, over time more than any other factor is is what has maybe made that less of a struggle or not a struggle actively but sure right.

Josh – Know it and and yeah and I would agree with that. But it’s not It’s not magical work. Um, and I think that’s important like it’s it’s work that I’ve done in conversation and and dealing with things and and letting go of things and figuring out. What the source of certain things were like it was that those conversations with Jesus that led to freedom in those areas without like sure I fought a good game doing it on my own. So maybe it was easier to get to that place. But um, it like yeah, it’s just ah, it’s the temptation thing is it’s it’s weird I don’t.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Um’ how to explain and I don’t want you to think like well god just I I don’t want you to be in the midst of that struggle right now and you’re like man if anyone knew the things that that I engage with um like I don’t want you to be there and be like well god must not love me enough and he loves Josh and Andrew Moo

Andrew – Right? No not true, right.

Josh – Um, because he let Josh and Andrew deal with those things like that’s not the game like we shoot I can give you a laundry list of other sins that that show up in my life on a regular basis that isn’t that just isn’t that like we all have the laundry list of sins and god’s goal isn’t necessarily that you stop sinning right? You’re like.

Andrew – Clean.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – You’re a fallen creation. Um that he’s trying to restore and it’s a process and it takes time. Um, and it’s going to be a process until you take your last breath but at the same time like don’t maybe God’s working on something else right now right.

Andrew – So.

Andrew – Right? right? exactly? yeah.

Josh – Like you can only handle so much change in a moment. Um, and maybe god has something else. That’s more important that he’s dealing with and working with with you and engage in those things like you’re going to have active sin in your life while you’re walking with Jesus that’s just the reality of it.

Andrew – Maybe yeah.

Josh – Um, it’s not a you know we are a new creation. We have power over those things but that power is not ours that power comes from Christ um, so walk with Jesus in the midst of those things to overcome that stuff and when it starts to seep in where it starts to attack your identity like that’s that’s when things start to get. Um.

Andrew – Me.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Difficult like moving into the next question kind of because it it relates but in your relationships can you identify some things that trigger your shame like for me, it’s the things that trigger like my identity where it starts to affect. My identity is my I I don’t think I’m that smart.

Andrew – Came.

Josh – I Was gonna say I I think I’m stupid but I don’t think I’m stupid I Just don’t think I’m that smart compared to others. So like if if in relationship in you don’t have to say it it just it can just come up like if you’re attacking my intelligence um about something like it can. It can.

Andrew – And.

Josh – Show up now if I care about it if I don’t care about then I’m like whatever yeah I don’t know anything about it. Um, that can start to to spark ah shame identity stuff. Um, you know my weight is another one like that’s been a struggle my whole life. Um, so that’s another one that that can trigger those things especially in terms of relationship.

Andrew – Right.

Andrew – Know yeah.

Josh – Um, like romantic relationship like that will trigger. Um and these go back to the same you know, particular shame messages that you believe on a regular basis now I’m a completely different person than I was even even just three years ago or five years ago so like these don’t trigger like they used to um and when they do trigger like.

Andrew – And.

Andrew – Um, right.

Josh – It’s a quick conversation with Jesus and you know it’s it’s back to normal and and I don’t say that to say look at Josh and how awesome Josh is I do say that to say you could be here too. Um, like as you walk with Jesus and learn how to foster relationship with Jesus and deepen and and find depth in the midst of that relationship that it’s not just a task.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – You’re completing but he’s a person that you’re engaging with like when you get to those places like you’re gonna like this is what you get to experience. You’re gonna find the same freedom that that I’ve found in these areas just keep keep pushing in like you’ll you’ll get there. But I think too often. We.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Um, we hear other people’s stories like this and say I’m never going to experience this and I’m 100% convinced that you can um, but yeah, those are kind of the triggering things that that hit for me on a pretty throughout my life on a pretty regular basis.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Yeah, man, that’s ah, that’s good and thanks for being honest with it like that’s not easy stuff to to share you know, um for the record I think you’re pretty Dan smart. Um I um.

Josh – I do too but still the message.

Andrew – I do too. Ah, that’s funny. But yeah, but I understand you’re like that’s a ah point I can get attacked at you know or that where shame can start to creep in um man I Yeah yeah yeah.

Josh – Well in dealing with that stuff too like just to jump in real quick because I think it’s important like it wasn’t a magical poof. It was gone one day like I dealt with those things like that comes from I’m dyslexic never diagnosis dyslexic. But there’s no doubt I’m dyslexic like reading in class that was like my biggest fear like.

Andrew – So right.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, me too.

Josh – You know we used to like read some book or whatever and you like switch from person to person like you’re trying to count sentences ahead. Do you know? So you know what you’re going to read and then you try to read like 7 times and hope there’s every word in there. You know I never learned the skill of sounding words out. So like I I know the word or I don’t know the word kind of thing I don’t know the whole whatever.

Andrew – Me too man. Yep yep.

Josh – Do better now. But it’s funnier to tell the story that way. Um, so like there’s it’s dealing with that like talking through with Jesus about that stuff that you start to find freedom in these things and start to let them go that you’re like oh but I was nine years old in in those moments I’m not None now like sure there’s going to be things that you don’t know how to do there’s going to be topics that feel overwhelming like there’s things with work. You’re like man I’m still feel like I’m still swiming trying to like figure it out and like the highly technical things of of my job and.

Andrew – Right? I know this right.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – Ah, the reality is we’re all in these boats. They’re complex things and the person that wrote the code is freaking smarter than all of us and then you’re in meetings with that person and that person’s like dude I’m so lost and you’re like great if he’s lost. We’re all lost. We’re never gonna figure this out. Ah.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Um, yeah.

Josh – But like you start to you start to become comfortable but it’s dealing with those like triggers from your past that reinforce the worldview early on or reinforce the um, whatever and for me, it’s humor that gets over it. That’s what I use like I tell the story of. Yeah, my mom tried hooked on phonics with me and it didn’t work like those kind of things are and they’re funny and I’m genuinely I Genuinely think they’re funny I’m not trying to cover up something like I’ve I dealt with a thing so I can I can talk about it this way. It might be shameful to my mom for me to say I shouldn’t ask her but um.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Like that’s not my intent like it’s it’s my way of saying yeah shame you have no place here like I’ve got this I should say Jesus have taught me how to go get this. But so yeah, like it’s dealing with the roots of those things and talking through the roots of those things that we start to find the freedom in these things right? like.

Andrew – Yeah, okay.

Andrew – Right? right.

Josh – Man and I’ve said this on the podcast before but like my my conversations with Jesus are are they feel like counseling sessions in a lot of ways if you’ve ever experienced. You know, counseling before like that’s how they feel like we’re talking about root stuff and identity stuff to deal with the.

Andrew – Um, yeah, yeah, right.

Josh – You know how those things you know manifest themselves in your life in a variety of different ways that they do whether it’s relationally or just character stuff that God’s working on I think too often we jump to the behavior and not deal with the underlying character issues that have to be dealt with.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Into.

Josh – And that’s just exhausting like to try to maintain a behavior that’s not actually attached to your character like or in conflict with your character like that’s a hard that’s a hard life to live and it’s it ain’t worth it if that’s where you’re at like that’s probably why you feel exhausted and white christianity feels like a chore. Um, it shouldn’t his burden is light.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Um, yeah, right, right? And those things are true and and you know we have an enemy who who wants us to not believe those things are true and not live out those things being true at all.

Josh – You know the living water that he gives you, you’ll never thirst again. You can live in these places.

Andrew – Um, and he works through through our our mind as much as he can but he also works through others to help reinforce those things um man you were talked about reading I remember it was in none grade. Ah where or no sixth grade. None grade I I wasn’t a very good reader. Um, because I sorry my daughter’s in here now. Just one moment Josh I’ll be right back? Sorry man.

Josh – You’re good. Apparently she has something to show him from starbucks maybe maybe they got her a drink. Let’s let’s as Andrew’s away probably can still hear us. Um, let’s think of the type of drink that Andrew would order when he went into Starbucks I’m picturing like. I wish a new name’s better I’m picturing like probably a foo-fu you drink I’m ah I’m gonna go like frapuccino or in the frappuccino realm um, he likes coffee but you know he doesn’t want the coffee strong so maybe like a mocha frapuccino so like a little bit of coffee but more chocolatey flavor.

Andrew – Right? Ah, ah frapacino. No no, Ah, that’s funny.

Josh – And then you know to be a little bit more bougie he doesn’t he doesn’t want just regular with cream. He wants the chocolate with cream so they have to actually make with cream for him for his drink by the way if you haven’t had chocolate with creed from Starbucks. Oh my gosh I worked for Starbucks for three months and that was the greatest that was the greatest invention I’ve ever seen.

Andrew – Right? Oh Oh I Never have. I have never had chocolate whipped cream and and now I Want to try it? yeah.

Josh – Um I didn’t invent it but it was it was great. Whoever showed it to me and then Andrew definitely definitely has has sprinkles on top of his rappucino. No doubt about that. He probably even like pulled out the caramel sauces and line the cup with caramel sauce before they dumped his.

Andrew – I. Right? totally.

Josh – Fra but she knew him I would say like at least None to take him to order his drink. That’s how long it is how close was I andrew.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, man it’s a process. It is a process but it’s a you were you know you and I’ve been to Starbucks many times so you know you’re not anywhere near close but I’m just gonna say you nailed it I’m just gonna say you nailed it? Um, yeah.

Josh – Yes, that’s all I wanted.

Andrew – Yeah man. Also I’ve never tried their chocolate whipped cream. But I’m going to sounds awesome. Um, all right? Dude yeah rolled their eyes a little bit. Nice nice dude. Um I was in None or None grade and and I was in.

Josh – Yeah, if you asking for it. They’re probably looking at you like screw you dude I’m not making this but sometimes they have it line around. Yeah.

Andrew – Like the literature class and you I don’t I’m not dyslexic I just was not good at reading because I had like anyway I was homeschooled for a while and my mom had this pleasure reading time as a part of each day wasn’t even that much time. But I remember constantly being like there’s no pleasure in reading and like just not trying at all and doing everything I could to not read so when I got into like None or None grade I was not a very good reader and it was my doing you know, But. Had this teacher who had me read a chunk out loud because like you were saying it was like going around. Everybody would read a few lines. Whatever Um, and I like I was super nervous and and kind of stuttered through it and stumbled through it and um. Man at the end of it this this teacher I don’t know if she didn’t like me or she was having a bad day or what but she she made fun of me in front of the whole class and she sure did yeah she like she was like Wow that took some time that took some to time like.

Josh – No way.

Josh – What.

Andrew – Right in front of the whole class. Yeah, just crushed me man like horrible and like I’m I’m glad I don’t remember her name because I I remember that moment clearly. But yeah, but it was like but it was one of those moments where I’m like Wow like.

Josh – Because you would definitely be telling everybody right now. What our name is.

Andrew – You know I already felt like bad about not being a great reader and then I I felt just deep shame out of it because I’m like yeah, you just embarrassed me in front of like my class of 20 like I feel horrible and I also kind of hate you in this moment you know from being real. Um.

Josh – Yeah.

Josh – That’s crazy. Yeah, understandably so.

Andrew – But yeah, but like there’s I think for me like that type of thing. Yes, that would that would be a trigger for sure. Another thing would be where I’ve like messed up and hurt relationship and and know I have um and like even if there’s forgiveness there and and things have been.

Josh – Um, yeah.

Andrew – Kind of rectified like man. It’s hard for me to forgive myself for things that that I’ve done that I know are wrong and hurt hurt other people or hurt relationships. So I guess that’s my answer like 1 that story of like that public um public shaming that that sucks.

Josh – No.

Andrew – And then um, yeah, in more practical times that aren’t None grade me just feeling like I hurt people and and dealing with that. Um, you know it’s it’s a lot harder for me to forgive myself than it is for me to ask for forgiveness from god if I’m being honest. So.

Josh – Um, that’s good and 2 like um, it’s funny like I have a sibling and I won’t label the sibling but that they they show shame on their face when they’re feeling it.

Andrew – Yeah man.

Josh – Um, which is probably actually ah a good thing for them because then they can identify it. But um, a lot of it has to do with past mistakes and oftentimes like your past was fake, especially relational mistakes like people hold them over you. Maybe they don’t say them directly but indirectly they they. They keep they keep it alive in you um to deal with their own crap right? like that’s the typical why they’re doing. They have their own harm and in things that they haven’t actually dealt with and um, it makes them feel better to keep you in those places man you.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – When you when you hurt somebody relationally apologize like that’s the right thing to do when you feel guilty about doing it. Yeah reach out apologize make it right? Um, the best that you can. But once you’ve done those things like you’re done like that’s on them at that point if they can’t forgive you. Um, if they’re going to hold on to those things like you can’t you can’t let that dictate your identity. Um, and you’ve done your part and I say this because shame is so powerful in our lives that if. If you let yourself go down these rows you’re going to get stuck. It’s like the victim mentality right? like the victim mentality is so destructive to your growth as a follower of Jesus um, one you’re not a victim Jesus took care of everything on the cross like move up move on from that. But it’s the same thing with shame like.

Andrew – I Yeah yeah.

Josh – Living in these shame messages in these cycles. It’s going to stunt your growth as a follower Jesus like you’re not going to be able to overcome certain things because they just have a full firm grip on you and that’s a hard that’s a hard place to live nobody wants to live in those places but. A reality for so many of us when we just don’t deal with this stuff and oftentimes it’s people trying to put it back on us. Well, you did such and such and you’re like yeah and and I asked for forgiveness and I made it right in the moment like if you can’t let it go I’m I’m not going to let it go for you like that’s on you I’m I’m not I’m not going to take that.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah, no.

Josh – It’s the whole thing of like oh man, what’s so we have a buddy I don’t want to name his name Andrew he was gonna make a shirt with this something like um damn it. That’s gonna bother me now such a good saying. Um I don’t receive that.

Andrew – I Don’t know man I don’t know it’s not ringing a bell I don’t receive and yes, yes.

Josh – That’s what it is I don’t receive that is that ringing a bell now. Um, okay yeah, such a good such ah such a good message like your shame that you’re placing on me. Yeah I don’t I don’t receive that sorry like just be just because you’re in this place doesn’t mean I’m goodnna I’m I’m um, Andnna be in that place. No thanks.

Andrew – Yep yep I reject that ah hard pass hard math. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh – Have a great day have a great life. Um, like you got to protect yourself in that way and you know and bring it up too like especially if it’s your spouse. That’s that’s doing these things with you and to you like bring it up like it’s worth the conversation and.

Andrew – Yeah, yeah.

Josh – Um, just to be able to say hey when you say these things or when you do these things like it triggers these shame messages inside of me and I spiral like I and I don’t I don’t want to and I know I hurt you and I I did my best to make it right and will continue to do my best to make it right? But the fact that we keep reliving it over and over again isn’t helpful to either of us.

Andrew – Yeah, right right.

Josh – So how with youcas living in unforgiveness is just as devastating to your growth as as living in shame like don’t want to play those games and it’s not the way that Jesus has called us to live this life relationally so fight him off fight him off not viciously but with Vigor. I think Vicker is a word I may have made that one up if not, it’s a good word. We’ll make it up now. It just means like.

Andrew – You know Vigor’s a great word vigor vigor is yeah vigor vigorous totally word man you nailed it fight with vigor. That’s right hey you du you are smart. Ah, you are man.

Josh – Winner look at me being smart I’m just kidding and just and just being just being dumb.

Andrew – Um, dude I I need I think we should jump in a few minutes but I wanted to I know the last question is believing that god has given you a brand new shame-free identity. What are some of the reasons you still fear being known by others. We could talk about that. Um, but I don’t know is that is that where. Where you think we should take the end of this discussion about shame because I don’t know I like we’ve talked a little bit about freedom and and like living into that freedom and I don’t reject or I don’t accept that you know, kind of rejecting shame that that others want to put your way. Um, but. I don’t know man. What do you think would be like a a fitting way to to kind of wrap this up because shame is a big deal and and it’s big deal to identify. But but the the more life-giving and and better side of it is is how you embrace freedom in Christ I guess and forgiveness in Christ. So.

Josh – Um, yeah, like um when you deal with these identity issues and shames and identity issue relationship becomes that much easier and that less scary and I say this from experience.

Andrew – That does that bump any thoughts off in your mind.

Josh – Right? Like I’m not I shouldn’t say that that way I haven’t been the majority of my life. A highly relational person. Um oftentimes relationships scare me or small talk would scare me because like it speaks the identity piece of like I’m not smart enough to engage and you can’t think quick enough to have us a small talk conversation.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Ah, is.

Josh – I Used to like hide it in terms of like well I Just don’t like small talk I think it’s stupid or blah bla Blah blah but the reality is like small talk leads to relationship like God start somewhere. Um, but I would convince myself of these things. Yeah and it is awkward and both people think it’s awkward. Ah, ah.

Andrew – Right? right? right? right? Got to start in the awkward middle middle ground. Yeah totally.

Josh – Identify that it’s awkward. It’s fine. Everyone will be okay and more comfortable when you say well this is an awkward conversation. Let’s try to make it better. Um, right like that’s normal and to get to know people like that’s normal like it comes with the territory. Um.

Andrew – Let’s just lean into it together. Yeah.

Josh – But I think when you start to deal with these identity things relationships not scary as scary anymore or scary at all and you start to look at at other individuals. Um, that you’re like oh like especially relationally like or you know in terms of like. Um, helping them understand who Jesus is in their life and the opportunity that there’s a better way to live this life. It doesn’t have to be exhausting like I get excited about those things like I used to struggle like who who do want to invest in next like who who do I have you know peace with that I could yeah actually have an opportunity to disciple. Um, well. Um, and now I don’t struggle with finding those people like not because like they’re showing up in terms of like um, um, like you know poof god has brought you this individual but like now it’s just like your eyes are open to it. You’re like oh man, the way this guy’s living his life. Could give him such a better way to live his life I’m gonna start building a relationship with this guy and see can get some voice and and teach him a a better way of doing it because I’ve experienced it like but it came from dealing with the identity stuff inside of you and and these shame cycles and messages dealing with these things that that start to get you more open open with people.

Andrew – I Rate totally.

Josh – Like I’ve had this thought recently and this may piss off our female listeners I don’t know women get the label of being more relational. Um and they are to some extent. But I think it’s fake relationship in most of their relationships especially in the church.

Andrew – Honey.

Josh – And you know you think of like women’s men who are like yeah we we talk about but they don’t really talk about real things. Um like they talk about they play the game of like I’m going to give you enough so we feel like friends but we’re like you don’t really know the real me. Um, and guys do this differently than women I’m not like picking on women but like.

Andrew – Who.

Josh – I Say this to say this men can do deep relationship really well as well. It shows up differently. It starts differently but you know women don’t get a hold onto that title forever I’m fighting that men are gonna have the title as well that we all do relationship extremely well and you know I’ve said this before but Christians should be the you.

Andrew – Yeah.

Andrew – Nice and. Right.

Josh – Expert relational people on on this plane and there should be nobody better on this plane and they do relationship better than us that sounded like I was attacking women and I was and I was just trying to prove a point about men and I used you I stomped in you a little bit to prove at that point and for that I do apologize. Um, actually there’s an apology I have to make from from last week too I forgot.

Andrew – And.

Andrew – Oh no. Wow.

Josh – I Wrote this in the notes and then never did. Um I don’t remember what I was talking. It’s been two weeks guys. So I don’t remember now I should have listened to the podcast. So I can apologize properly but I didn’t um but I think I started to speak we were talking about relationship and doing relationship with friends and.

Andrew – Um, right right.

Andrew – Um, yeah, um.

Josh – What keeps you? maybe I can find the question. What keeps you.

Josh – How do you become I think we’re talking about how do you become a trustworthy person for your clothes I don’t remember what was but I started to speak about a personal issue that I’m having with a friend of mine. Um, and I don’t think it was.

Andrew – Um, yeah. Um.

Josh – I started to speak like it was a general thing and I don’t think it was general I think it was specific to this relationship that I had and it wasn’t fair to my friend. It wasn’t fair to you because I don’t think everything I said in that in that was actually true from a general perspective I think it was specific to that relationship and I was taking shots and that wasn’t.

Andrew – For for.

Andrew – Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh – That wasn’t right of me so I do apologize for that and now if you didn’t listen to the episode you’ like what is Josh talking about drama I’m going back and watching listen to the other episode by all means please do um, get those listens up for us. We appreciate it. But I do apologize. Yeah.

Andrew – Um, just pulling you back in. We’re pulling you back in. It was all a strategy that’s funny and hey let me let me just say it like in building relationship in building. Trust I’m sure whether you’re male or female doesn’t matter. Um, like own it and apologize when you mess up like be quick to apologize. Um and and not just so you like get your guilt alleviated of like yeah yeah, it’s okay, don’t worry about it but like to apologize sincerely and be like hey i. Wasn’t right in how I did that maybe it wasn’t even a big deal to you but it really mattered to me and and I wanted to apologize I won’t do that again. You know like make things right? and like we talk like we open by talking about like. Shame that comes from like sexual sin or or really any type of shared similar sin like that that starts with this voice of like no, you’re alone like it’s just you. You’re the you’re the messed up None and nobody else is is dealing with this It’s it’s not a problem for others. It’s a problem for you. Well a perfect way to break that is to apologize and own your own any way that you are failing in relationship you know, just own it. And be quick to apologize for it because guess what that humanizes you to other people and makes you like oh they’re not just like thinking. They’re perfect and I’m messed up they’re they’re well and dead met where they’re not perfect. You know that’s a good place to start and and if we’re gonna. Serve a god who who is full of forgiveness and grace like we talk about and we need to be quick to go to him and confess our sins. You know, confess confess how we need him to intervene in our lives and where we’re falling short and if we’re going to be in deep relationship with others. With people we need to be just as quick to be like hey I messed up Josh I messed up friend I messed up you know spouse like can you forgive me and and own it and do that sincerely? um, not to alleviate your guilt but to but to build relationship in a real way. Um. And to try to learn from it because men were human. We’ve got a lot to learn. You know we are fallen even though we’re being made into a new creation. You know it’s a paradox but but it’s one that god god uses this life to teach us how to be more like him.

Josh – Yeah.

Andrew – And how to live as the people he wants us to live to be Kingdom bringers you know and in this life and I don’t know it’s not easy, but but that’s a good way to start is like maybe a practical step is if you know you’ve messed up in relationship recently and you haven’t gone to that person and apologized. Sincerely figure out how to go do that Soon. You know start there like that humanizes you more than you know if you don’t if you don’t already know it. It’s ah it’s a really good place to start? yeah.

Josh – Well and the crazy thing and the crazy thing about apologies is like peak people are at least my experience especially people you don’t like do relationship with regularly like maybe a coworker or something like that like when you apologize to those people. It’s it’s surprising to them because it’s not normal behavior.

Andrew – Yeah.

Josh – Um, so like because it’s surprising them. You get more. You get more influence with them. Um, like you have you have a little bit more relational collateral with them and and have a little bit more favor with them than you did before um because you just chose to do the right thing which Jesus calls us to and fix relationship and apologize. And genuine apologize. Don’t don’t do that those none apology bullshit like be or be it. Let it be a real apology people don’t play those games but.

Andrew – Yeah, make it genuine. Let it be real. Let it be real. It will it will help lead to deeper relationship and it will will break shame in others at the same time for sure. Yeah man.

Josh – Yeah, yeah for sure. Well hey that was conversation number 8 we got 2 more of these conversations join us hopefully next week. Hopefully we don’t we don’t miss something but hey thanks for much for listening Andrew I love you my brother.

Andrew – Number 8 oh show.

Andrew – Loving my man doctor soon.